Notion CEO Ivan Zhao desires you to demand higher out of your instruments

Hiya, and welcome to Decoder! That is Casey Newton, founder and editor of Platformer and cohost of the Laborious Fork podcast. That is the second episode of my productivity-focused Decoder sequence that I’m doing whereas Nilay is out on parental go away.

At the moment, I’m speaking with Notion cofounder and CEO Ivan Zhao. I’ve adopted Notion for fairly a while now — I’m a giant fan, and a significant a part of my workflow for Platformer is definitely constructed on high of Notion’s database characteristic. So I used to be very excited to get Ivan on the present to debate his philosophy on productiveness, how he’s grown his firm during the last decade, and the place he sees the area going sooner or later.

In case you’ve by no means used Notion, you may consider it as an all-in-one productiveness suite corresponding to lots of the collaboration and so-called “second mind” apps in the marketplace — from the extra business-y venture administration instruments like Asana and AirTable to the extra DIY note-taking variants like Anytype and Obsidian.

Notion sits fairly comfortably within the center right here, since it could do what lots of these sorts of apps do very nicely, and multi functional package deal. On the identical time, it permits for a fairly substantial quantity of customization, which has made it common each for particular person productiveness energy customers and for firms giant and small.

However Notion began as a really completely different piece of software program, and its evolution during the last 12 years or so has concerned a good quantity of trial and error, one main reboot, and lots of large selections. For my part, what actually units Notion other than so a lot of its friends is Ivan’s deep ardour for design and an nearly relentless drive to make merchandise that he sees as helpful and aesthetic in equal measure.

You’ll hear Ivan early on on this dialog reference LEGO: the toy bricks are the central inspiration for Notion, which employs “blocks” as a metaphor for configurable templates that can help you use Notion in a fairly various set of the way. Assume all the things from easy notes and lists to advanced databases and workflows.

However Notion, like a lot software program today, is evolving. Now, the corporate calls itself the “AI workspace that works for you,” and also you’ll hear Ivan recount intimately how the launch of OpenAI’s GPT-4 proved to be a giant turning level for him and for Notion. The corporate launched an OpenAI-powered AI product a lot prior to the competitors, even earlier than the launch of ChatGPT, and it’s added a number of latest AI-powered options prior to now few years.

Ivan himself can also be fairly excited in regards to the capabilities of AI; he stated he makes use of it in his free time to study new topics, and also you’ll hear discuss in depth right here about his imaginative and prescient for AI brokers that more and more do increasingly be just right for you inside apps like Notion.

However a typical theme with the AI trade proper now’s the very giant hole between what AI can really do at the moment, and what so many individuals hope it could do down the highway. So I actually needed to ask Ivan how we would get to this future he predicts, how lengthy that can actually take, and what productiveness and data work appear like if AI delivers on a few of these lofty guarantees.

Okay: Notion CEO Ivan Zhao. Right here we go.

This interview has been frivolously edited for size and readability.

Ivan Zhao, you’re the co-founder and CEO of Notion. Welcome to Decoder.

So at a excessive stage, describe Notion for us. If listeners haven’t used it but, what’s it? What does it do?

Nicely, we make all-in-one productiveness software program. Folks use Notion for all types of issues, from taking notes, collaborating on tasks, managing paperwork, managing their data base, and, most just lately, we launched a calendar product and mail product. You employ Notion, so you must describe what Notion is.

I believe you simply did a extremely good job describing it. I do use Notion, which is without doubt one of the causes I needed to speak to you, as a result of each time I discuss to a CEO whose merchandise I exploit, I get to present them product suggestions, which is thrilling for me.

So do you see Notion at the moment as extra for groups than people? Is that the course it has discovered?

We designed Notion for groups. So one other method to describe Notion is that we name it LEGO for software program. Perhaps it’s value explaining the intent just a little bit. In case you’re an organization, on your workforce, it’s important to use a dozen completely different instruments to get your work carried out, and our objective is to consolidate these instruments into one field and provide the LEGO blocks that energy all these use circumstances. Not solely are you able to do all of your work in a single place, however you can too use these LEGO blocks to create and customise your individual workflows.

You and I’ve talked a good quantity about LEGO over time. What appeals to you about that design? Why is it such metaphor for what you’re making an attempt to do with Notion?

Nicely, as a result of it didn’t fairly exist with software program. If you concentrate on the final 15 years of [software-as-a-service], it’s largely individuals constructing vertical level options. For every purchaser, for every level, that answer form of is smart. The best way we describe it’s that it’s like a tough plastic answer on your drawback, however after getting 20 completely different arduous plastic options, they form of don’t match nicely collectively. You can not tinker with them. As an finish person, it’s important to leap between half a dozen of them every day.

That’s not fairly proper, and we’re additionally impressed by the early computing pioneers who within the ‘60s and ‘70s thought that computing ought to be extra LEGO-like fairly than like arduous plastic. That’s what acquired me began engaged on Notion a very long time in the past, once I was studying a pc science paper again in faculty.

You needed to make instruments that may snap collectively the best way that LEGO blocks do.

We wish to make instruments that amplify human creativity. LEGO are artistic. LEGO are lovely, and most software program most likely shouldn’t be as a lot.

Say just a little bit extra about the way you have been drawn into this world. Had been you at all times any person who was concerned with productiveness instruments? Or did that come to you later in life?

No. I believe it’s a misunderstanding about Notion. Notion is productiveness software program, that’s what we do as a enterprise, as a product. However the ethos of that is what I simply described; it’s the LEGO ethos. It’s possibly value describing the historical past of the computing trade just a little bit, as a result of that impressed Notion.

Within the ‘60s and ‘70s, ‘60s, the hippie era who took acid in San Francisco thought, “Nicely holy shit, this room-sized calculator, should you put a monitor in entrance of it, it may be an interactive factor, it may be a brand new kind of medium that helps you suppose higher, helps you remedy issues extra collaboratively.” That’s why the primary era of non-public computing began within the Bay Space.

That era of thinkers and pioneers thought of computing type of like studying and writing. Like we went to high school for a number of years, however not everyone can learn and write English or German or no matter language you converse. Writing is a device. Sure, you is usually a poet, you may be writing essays, but it surely’s a really malleable medium.

So, they got down to make computing malleable and tinkerable, and everyone may their very own software program. Then, within the ‘80s, the Invoice Gates and Steve Jobs era took computer systems to the mass market and put a pc in each house, on each desk. They form of froze computing into this software format. If you concentrate on functions, every software is type of like a mini-prison of computing. You can not change it that a lot. There are software makers who’re engineer programmers, after which there are software customers who’re like the remainder of us, the individuals who use productiveness instruments day-after-day.

So once I was studying these papers about these ‘60s and ‘70s individuals, I believed, “Holy shit, the world that we’re residing in is sort of a prison-like world.” If something, the SaaS of the previous 15 years has been for even smaller jail cells, as every software can solely do a tiny slice of issues. So, that doesn’t make it proper for me, and the shopper feels the identical means. It doesn’t make sense that on your each day job, it’s important to leap between 20 completely different instruments to get some work carried out. The common firm or common enterprise makes use of 100-plus completely different SaaS instruments. The fragmentation is clear, even for the IT division.

So, there’s one other saying in enterprise: you both bundle or unbundle. So, Notion’s squarely within the bundling enterprise. Our job is to bundle SaaS right into a one-ish productiveness device on your core each day wants, so we are able to unleash LEGO-like creativity for you.

It’s an attention-grabbing dialog. It makes me consider kitchen devices, since you see the identical rigidity there, the place there are some kitchen instruments, like I don’t know, a stand mixer, or an immersion blender, that you should utilize to make many, many alternative sorts of recipes. After which there’s the garlic press, which is nice for mincing garlic and nothing else.

It feels like what you’re saying is by the point we acquired into the 2010s, productiveness was only a bunch of garlic presses, and also you form of needed to return alongside and say, “What if we simply had a stand mixer and you could possibly make lots of recipes with one factor?”

A pal of mine used this metaphor, just like what you stated. Have you ever seen avocado cutters?

An avocado cutter is made only for freaking avocados. You can not do the rest. Compared, a kitchen knife is a device that you should utilize lots of or hundreds of various methods. You, as a human, amplify it as a result of you might have a method. So, to create software program that’s extra like a kitchen knife, or LEGO, that’s what pursuits me, and pursuits us as an organization.

However you may’t blame the trade, as a result of if you concentrate on it — should you rewind again earlier than SaaS — the world was operating on Microsoft Workplace for stable 10 to twenty years. SaaS, with the web as its distribution, permits new companies to be created. The pure method to go about distribution and new companies is to discover a actually exact answer, creating these avocado cutters and garlic presses, and you could find patrons on the opposite aspect.

So, as we transfer into at the moment, do you consider your self as competing instantly towards Microsoft Workplace or Google Office? Is the imaginative and prescient that large, or is it one thing completely different?

We coexist with them, as most of our clients are nonetheless utilizing Google Office or Microsoft Workplace. They use their identification service, they use their mail and calendar apps. Now we have a mail and calendar product at the moment as a consumer. A startup can absolutely run on Notion. You don’t want to make use of Microsoft 360 or Google Docs, but it surely’s not as mutually unique.

Our candy spot is extra on the issues that you might want to put in a database. One other means to consider it’s like, what’s Microsoft Entry however for the 2020s, and AI native? Most SaaS is type of like a relational database, storing some type of system file of your organization, and one workflow on high of that. That’s the half that neither Microsoft nor Google touches at the moment.

There are spreadsheets, however there usually are not many database use circumstances. We wish to consolidate and commoditize that, and provides individuals the LEGO of these database use circumstances, akin to venture administration and ticket monitoring. Some firms use them for CRM, or managing software trackers. For reporters, you may handle all of your leads and the tales. These are database use circumstances.

Proper, and I do do a few of that in Notion. Let me ask you in regards to the flip aspect of constructing a product that has a lot utility baked into it, which is that typically once I’ve talked to individuals who have tried Notion, they are saying, “I didn’t know the place to start. I felt intimidated by the clean web page.” It appeared like there was a studying curve.

How do you concentrate on that problem, and attempt to carry individuals alongside into understanding what Notion is supposed to do?

Yeah, like early LEGO, you get bricks. Then in a while, LEGO created techniques and containers, and now LEGO works with Marvel and F1 to create actually specialised containers. In some sense, Notion as an organization, we’re in the midst of including extra containers, so individuals don’t have to begin from an empty set of bricks, with no instruction guide.

You possibly can think about, like, “Hey, I desire a Formulation One race automobile. I like that LEGO field.” Whenever you open it, you might have your automobile ready-made for you, so you can begin driving it. You play with that LEGO toy instantly. However should you don’t like sure components of the vehicles, as a result of they’re constituted of LEGOs, you may change them. That has at all times been our philosophy, and we’re doubling down on this strategy as a result of it really works.

Fascinating. I really feel like a key problem that a number of the different large productiveness instruments like Microsoft Workplace have had over time is bloat, proper? The app has 1,000,000 options, and every particular person one is essential to love 0.5 % of the person base, so you may’t take away it.

But additionally, the app simply will get tougher and tougher to make use of over time as a result of it’s so full of buttons, menus, and widgets. Can Notion keep away from that? And have there been occasions if you’ve nervous you is likely to be there already?

It’s positively difficult. If you wish to assist extra energy, you might want to have extra issues. There are two methods to strategy it. The basic means is simply including that characteristic, within the arduous plastic means. We’re taking a extra LEGO strategy, so including the brick, and the brick can be utilized for various issues. In some sense, it is a a lot better strategy.

Received it. So, making an attempt to supply fewer discreet, very slender options, and extra summary options that may be prolonged in numerous other ways.

Like LEGO techniques, on one finish may be toy vehicles, and on the opposite might be Barbie dolls, roughly utilizing the identical bricks. In case you have a look at the commonest productiveness device, should you simply put your designer thoughts on that, there are 20 or 30 items there. There’s some type of desk, some type of relational database characteristic, some charts, some commenting, web page enhancing, and collaboration.

These 20 issues are core to all collaboration and data work. So, we attempt to do our greatest job to make them pleasant, approachable, and break them into items, and provides them to you, both as a chunk or as part of a package deal.

What bricks inside Notion are hottest at the moment?

We begin with bricks round paperwork and data bases. We’re well-known for our block-based editors, and that’s from the early days. That’s like 2019 into 2020. After which databases are our most necessary brick at the moment, as a result of, like I discussed, most data work is simply fancy file cupboards within the cloud. Data work runs on file cupboards, and databases are the center of that.

Yeah, the database is my primary Notion brick that I exploit. In order that is smart to me.

Folks don’t uncover that [easily]. We have to do a greater job of getting individuals to grasp its energy. It’s basically what an engineer does day-after-day is wire collectively a relational database with views on high of that. How will we democratize that? That’s our objective.

Nicely, it’s attention-grabbing, as a result of if I had by no means heard of Notion, and also you got here to me and also you stated, “Casey, you must construct a database to resolve this drawback,” that’s like telling me that I ought to add one other room to my home. I don’t know the place to start. I really feel like I must name any person and ask for assist.

However in follow, you click on a few buttons, and in my case, set up the Notion Internet Clipper, and I’m nicely on my method to having a database. So, I don’t really suppose the educational curve is that steep, however I may perceive why any person is likely to be intimidated by it if they’d by no means tried to do this form of factor.

Yeah, not each child grew up liking LEGO as their primary toy. I believe Notion resonates the most effective with individuals who wish to construct, they usually are typically entrepreneurs, tech individuals, and the spreadsheet gurus in every workforce. They like Notion, they usually set it up for the remainder of their teammates.

That’s at all times useful when you may get individuals inside the corporate doing the gross sales half for you.

You already know what? AI can do that fairly nicely now, as a result of what AI is nice at is gluing collectively LEGO bricks. AI can write code. Writing code is simply one other means of gluing collectively your course of and workflows, and our newest product basically will get AI to be this profitable particular person to assist arrange your Notion workspace for you, and that’s one other method to onboard clients. That’s a model new method to unlock that we’ve added prior to now 12 months to 2 years.

I’ll say that it has been very highly effective for me in lots of completely different merchandise. Having the ability to use the in-app AI to say, “How do I do that?” And truly getting a solution. As any person who has spent lots of time in assist menus over time, digging round and never discovering what I used to be on the lookout for, that has been tremendous helpful.

And it’s not simply serving to by instructing the human to do it. An increasing number of, AI can simply do it, proper?

That’s the largest distinction, really. If you concentrate on what’s occurring in software program proper now, software program is basically individuals offering the instruments for people to make use of, and increasingly firms are realizing, “Wait a second, we’ve this new factor referred to as a language mannequin. It’s like a human mini-intern in a field, and we must always design our software program to show AI find out how to use it so people can ask AI to do the work and use the instruments, and people can do far more issues with it.”

I wish to ask you a number of the Decoder questions that Nilay would ask if he have been right here. Notion was final valued at $10 billion almost 4 years in the past, if you raised your final spherical of funding. What has allowed you to continue to grow with out elevating extra funding? Are you worthwhile?

We’re worthwhile. So, worthwhile, rising quick; the enterprise is doing nicely.

Good. How does that really feel?

It feels good. I’d say the bigger driver of our on a regular basis exercise is the truth that the software program trade is totally altering with AI. It feels just like the AI period of the previous two years simply makes the SaaS period really feel like sleeping days. It’s a much bigger driver of our execution technique than simply operating a worthwhile enterprise.

I’d like to listen to extra about how that’s working. Is it the case that executives see AI altering numerous workplaces, they usually suppose, “We have to work out our model of this,” and they also come to Notion to assist them determine it out?

Or is it that your product groups are so excited in regards to the prospects that you simply’re simply now seeing them construct options, that are then drawing in new clients?

I’d say clients are lagging behind in the intervening time. Most individuals don’t know. It occurs with each new expertise. You don’t know what to do with it. The shopper shouldn’t be going to inform you. It’s the individuals who play with this, construct issues, and possibly have an creativeness just a few years into the longer term, or perhaps a few months sooner or later, at this level. AI is altering so quick. So lots is from ourselves, simply taking part in with AI and realizing, “Holy moly, it is a very completely different factor. You possibly can remedy issues that you simply couldn’t remedy earlier than with basic software program.” Now, what are you going to do with it?

There’s really an attention-grabbing story. My co-founder, Simon Final, and I acquired early entry to GPT-4. So that is like late 2022, just a little bit earlier than everyone else. We thought everyone else would get early entry to this. We thought, “Holy shit,” as a result of in comparison with GPT-3, GPT-4 is a brand-new factor. It’s prefer it has actual clever reasoning in it. So we locked ourselves in a resort room for a few week, and simply tried to hurry out the primary Notion AI product. We really launched a month earlier than ChatGPT occurred. We have been enthusiastic about what you are able to do with this new kind of fabric. That’s for Notion, that vitality comes from there.

What number of workers do you might have over there? How large is Notion at the moment?

Excessive three digits. So, 900, possibly approaching 1,000.

How do you concentrate on firm measurement? Do you see a world the place there are 5 occasions that many workers? Or do you wish to preserve it someplace round the place it’s proper now?

I believe there’s no proper reply for absolutely the quantity, however there’s a solution for the density of the expertise. The denser the higher.

You want having fewer, however extra gifted individuals versus extra individuals?

I wish to have fewer, if we are able to do the work with fewer individuals, and there’s much less communication overhead. Folks have extra possession, and other people can work issues throughout boundaries. That’s simply higher total. The corporate strikes quicker. The small automobile can flip corners a lot better than a giant automobile, and we at all times name Notion a small bus. We attempt to preserve the bus as tight as attainable.

What’s your org chart? How is Notion organized?

Pretty basic. It’s me and my co-founders, Simon Final and Akshay Kothari. Simon continues to be coding day-after-day. Akshay runs our product and design org and analysis. Our chief expertise officer, Fuzzy Khosrowshahi, runs the entire engineering. Our chief income officer, Erica Anderson, is answerable for gross sales, advertising, and client expertise. And we’ve our chief finance officer, Rama Katkar, and normal counsel, Hasani Caraway. That’s our basic org chart.

So that you didn’t really feel the necessity to reinvent the wheel there or do any innovating, simply form of create basic firm divisions and let individuals go do their factor.

Basic firm divisions and high-quality individuals preserve the bus tight. In order that means that you can be worthwhile.

How do you make large selections? Do you might have a framework you utilize? Or is each resolution completely different?

Nicely, there are the everyday one-way doorways and two-way doorways. With a one-way door, you attempt to transfer quick, and with a two-way door, you suppose just a little bit extra rigorously and sleep on it. These are pondering quick and sluggish kinds of issues. I’m fairly detailed. I wish to work on the notes, so there’s a sure drawback I’m good at. Personally, it offers me vitality, and I’m concerned with engaged on the bottom within the trenches with everyone.

There are particular components, although, like I can’t run our finance workforce. Our CFO, Rama Katkar, is de facto superb. She takes care of that. However for sure issues — like design and product, engineering, advertising, and branding — I wish to get entangled.

You’ve at all times struck me as a product CEO. I believe from the primary time I met you, it appeared to me what was most attention-grabbing to you about your organization was the device itself that you simply have been constructing, versus the market alternative, or one thing like that.

I constructed Notion as a result of I needed to construct Notion, not as a result of I needed to begin an organization or enterprise. I needed this factor to exist.

Let me ask you yet another resolution query, about one of many greater selections you needed to make. So in 2015, you determined to close down the 1.0 model of Notion, relocate to Japan, and finally relaunch Notion 2.0, which is type of the Notion that we consider once we use it at the moment. How did you make that call?

Nicely, it’s important to, in any other case you die, proper? At that time, it was like, “We’re constructing on the mistaken factor, the mistaken basis,” and you understand what the fitting factor is, but it surely’s simply going to take you possibly a 12 months to a 12 months and a half to construct the fitting factor. We have been an organization of about 5 individuals, and we have been going to expire of cash.

The one method to do it was to shrink it again to simply me and my co-founder, Simon. So, we began over. Japan is an efficient place as a result of it’s cheap, and we’ve by no means been there. It was attention-grabbing, and we may simply concentrate on constructing.

I do know different founders who’ve been in that state of affairs, and that’s the second the place they gave up, as a result of they thought, “You already know what? Perhaps I may consider one other factor to construct right here, but it surely appears exhausting. It’s going to take a 12 months. I’ve already put a 12 months and a half or so into this app. I gave it all the things I had. It didn’t work.”

What was it that made you say, “No, we’re going to maintain occurring this. We expect that there’s a imaginative and prescient right here that we are able to really obtain”?

The objective was by no means to begin a enterprise, like I discussed. The objective was to construct this factor, and the factor didn’t fairly exist. Notion is without doubt one of the few bundling, consolidating software program productiveness instruments on the market, and it didn’t fairly exist on the time. Software program for LEGO doesn’t exist. So if I began an organization, I needed to do the identical factor. Why don’t I simply reset and return to Simon and me so we are able to stretch the cash a bit longer?

Truly, I simply acquired again from Kyoto final week, the place there was a tech occasion, and the Kyoto mayor and I did a hearth chat and talked about this story. They needed to speak about utilizing Notion for example of how we are able to mix tech and Kyoto’s craft custom. As a result of we’re additionally impressed lots by the craft individuals in Kyoto, how they dedicate their time to constructing one thing, and never only for cash or fame.

That’s so loopy. I used to be really in Kyoto final week, too. I used to be on trip and went there for the primary time, and I had an unimaginable time. Kyoto’s superb.

You get the sense that it’s just a little bit slower tempo. Folks care about what [they’re making], proper? Folks really care. That’s the factor. It’s the principle factor. It’s not the enterprise, it’s not their different environment.

Oh completely. I imply, you go to those temples which are 1,000-plus years previous, and the care and the craftsmanship that they put into them is really inspiring. It’s deeply lovely. It’s very linked to their spirituality, and their faith, tradition, and historical past. So I may perceive why a founder would go there and take lots of inspiration.

Yeah, as a result of it’s a bit slower too, you may concentrate on digital areas, on computer systems.

Yeah, it’s not like San Francisco, with our go-go nightlife, our Waymos, the get together scene, all of that.

Or New York, even, much more of that.

Yet another of those. This isn’t strictly a Decoder query, but it surely spiritually appears like a Decoder query that I needed to ask you. What’s the greatest productiveness device that you simply use that’s not made by Notion?

I like these chatbot merchandise: ChatGPT, Anthropic’s Claude. It’s fairly superb, particularly when speaking about options, just like the dialog mode. I really like these. I wish to be taught from them.

The voice mode, yeah. It helps me be taught lots of various things. Once I’m making espresso and ready for the water to boil, I can simply discuss with this factor for just a little bit, like for 2 minutes. It’s good.

What do you ask it about? What do you wish to study?

Oh, all types. What’s most up-to-date? In Japan, I used to be studying a e-book about Marshall McLuhan.

Yeah, media theorist and theologian. A lot of his ideas are arduous to interpret, so it’s higher to simply work via them with a language mannequin that can assist information you. It’s the most effective tutor, really. Training ought to be very completely different. Hopefully, it will likely be very completely different just a few years from now.

I believe so. This isn’t fairly a tutoring use case, however I simply must say, once I was in Kyoto final week, we have been within the neighborhood and had a while to kill, so I simply opened Google Maps, and it form of opens to the place we’re, and I took a screenshot. I simply despatched it to ChatGPT, and I stated, “Inform us a bit about this neighborhood.”

It gave me a historical past of the neighborhood. It instructed me in regards to the cool eating places, cool espresso outlets, a museum, and locations that we may stroll to. I imply, it really was pretty much as good as I can think about getting from any information, and it was so simple as importing a screenshot. The entire thing took 15 seconds. It was wild to me.

Yeah. One use case I’ve, if I am going to a well-known architectural constructing, is that I say, “Hey, I’m at this place, inform me about it. I’m taking a look at this half, a nook of this constructing. Inform me extra about why that’s the case,” proper? As a result of if it’s well-known sufficient, it’s most likely a part of the corpus of coaching. So, the language mannequin is aware of about it.

You possibly can simply take a very guided tour, and also you don’t want one other particular person; you’re simply speaking along with your machine.

Nicely, that looks like segue into Notion and AI. We’ve talked about what Notion is, the way it’s modified. Notion now payments itself because the “AI workspace that works for you.” So, what does an AI workspace imply to you? What would you like it to be for us?

If you concentrate on our technique in the course of the SaaS period, it’s bundling and consolidating a bunch of various instruments for data work into one place. What’s modified prior to now couple of years is that it now has all that comfortable data of LEGO in Notion; you can’t solely present the instruments, however you can too assemble them as your AI teammates. They’ll do the be just right for you.

We’re lucky to have that data work LEGO in a single place so you may piece it collectively in a really attention-grabbing means. As a result of one finish can take notes for you, the opposite finish may help you handle, triage tasks, and write paperwork. These are staple items, however increasingly, with extra LEGO and smarter fashions, you basically rent Notion as your AI teammate. That’s the longer term that we’ve been constructing, or constructing extra towards.

I bear in mind one time I used to be assembly with you, and also you simply launched a few of these AI instruments, and also you have been exhibiting me that Notion AI was taking notes about numerous conferences. So that you have been capable of dip into conferences on the firm that you simply didn’t personally attend, and simply type of rapidly atone for what your coworkers have been speaking about.

I believed, “That’s tremendous attention-grabbing.” That’s the type of characteristic that I can think about lots of CEOs wanting, however earlier than this level, they haven’t had that stage of visibility into their very own firm.

We simply launched three separate merchandise a few months in the past, like Notion AI for Work, together with the subsequent model of this enterprise search product you’re speaking about. So, together with that was the launch of our AI Meeting Notes product, so all of your conferences may be recorded and transcribed.

So basically, your organization has a collective mind of what’s occurring, and you’ve got all of the AI data staff on high of Notion that will help you transcribe the assembly notes and reply no matter questions you could have. It’s fairly attention-grabbing what you are able to do with the expertise now.

Of all of the AI options that you simply’ve added to date, which of them do you personally discover essentially the most helpful?

I exploit AI assembly notes. Nearly each assembly, besides this one, I file, and I exploit that for conferences so I can share notes with different individuals. I exploit it for myself, as a beginning place to dump my ideas. And so I can later bear in mind to ask AI to show the transcription into writing. English is my second language, so I’m not the quickest author, however AI can do higher writing than I can if I simply dump out what’s on the highest of my thoughts via the AI transcription characteristic.

That’s actually attention-grabbing. There’s lots of discuss proper now about AI, and whether or not it’d change staff, or complete workflows, or capabilities inside a corporation. You’ve talked at the moment about AI with the ability to function a type of teammate.

Do you suppose that AI and Notion will get to some extent the place executives will rent fewer individuals, as a result of Notion will do it for them? Or are you extra centered on simply serving to individuals do their current jobs?

We’re really placing out a marketing campaign about this, within the coming weeks or months. We wish to push out a extra amplifying, optimistic message about what Notion can do for you. So, think about the billboard we’re placing out. It’s you within the middle. Then, with a device like Notion or different AI instruments, you may have AI teammates. Think about that you simply and I begin an organization. We’re two co-founders, we join Notion, and rapidly, we’re supplemented by different AI teammates, some taking notes for us, some triaging, some doing analysis whereas we’re sleeping.

So, rapidly, we’re a workforce or an organization of 10 individuals. Then the startup can run a lot quicker. That’s the imaginative and prescient we wish to push extra in direction of the world. So, extra of an amplifying drive, fairly than a zero-sum drive.

What timeframe do you suppose that arrives? Does that really feel prefer it’s nearly inside attain? Or do you suppose we’re going to wish to see a number of extra analysis breakthroughs earlier than that form of factor turns into attainable?

From somebody who’s constructing with this day-after-day, I believe the potential is just about there. There are completely different spectrum complexities of data work. The mannequin is sort of good. I’d say what’s missing is the plumbing, the toolings that unlock the potential of the mannequin. That’s basically what Notion is doing, with the LEGO blocks being the plumbing and tooling. So, that’s one constraint.

The opposite constraint is simply how individuals use it, and the way individuals plug it into their workforce. Paperwork is typically factor, and typically it’s a foul factor. On this case, I believe it’s really factor, as a result of it slows issues down just a little bit. It offers individuals the time to adapt and to be taught with this new device. I believe it’s good. So, the potential is kind of there, and if not, each three months you get a brand new one. The tendencies simply preserve coming, proper?

On the identical time, I believe the largest flaw within the AI fashions that we’ve at the moment is that they’re not dependable. They don’t reply the identical query the identical means 100% of the time. So, if I’m counting on it for mission-critical stuff, if it’s one of many 10 “individuals” at my firm, and I inform it to go seize some info and figures, and it simply type of hallucinates the mistaken one, that’s actually dangerous.

If that have been an actual employee, I’d, I don’t know, put them on a efficiency enchancment plan or one thing. So how do you concentrate on reliability as a problem to what sorts of providers you wish to supply individuals?

Yeah, it’s positively a difficulty, and I’d say it’s getting higher basically. I’d say the most effective, closest psychological mannequin is treating the language mannequin similar to a human, similar to an intern. People make errors. Your belief stage, if you inform one other human one thing, is that there’s no assure that this human can’t mess it up or inform one other particular person, regardless that you don’t need them to, proper?

So, we’re lastly constructing belief this fashion. Folks’s expectations for software program are greater as a result of software program, for the longest time, was at all times actual — there are not any bugs. It at all times does precisely what it’s instructed. AI is a brand new kind of software program. Our expectation hasn’t been set on find out how to cope with this but. I believe as extra individuals get used to it, as we modify our habits round it and corporations change their workflows round it, I believe we’ll discover an equilibrium that’s amplifying the higher a part of this expertise and coping with its shortcomings.

Yeah, I believe the podcaster, Dwarkesh Patel, stated one thing like, “An AI at the moment is best than an intern on day one, however worse than an intern on day 5.” As a result of on day one, they’ve all of the data of human historical past, they usually can form of dazzle you with their capabilities.

But additionally, they’ve bother studying, and it’s arduous to point out them find out how to do one thing as soon as after which have them do it reliably each single time. Whereas a human being may try this. So, I’m personally very curious, when is the purpose when an AI is best than that day-five intern?

I believe all firms, together with Notion, try to determine strategies to inject reminiscence and studying into this “intern.” Within the coming quarters, you will notice merchandise with this baked in.

Okay, now my ears are perking up, as a result of it feels like we’re getting just a little little bit of a preview. Do you wish to inform us what you’re engaged on over there?

Much like the marketing campaign I simply talked about. A few months in the past, we launched Notion AI for Work. It has AI assembly notes and deep analysis that will help you draft paperwork. For the upcoming product, you may really now think about each is an AI intern and may do a specialised factor, proper? With the upcoming product, you may really create completely different flavors of AI interns, AI teammates, that stay with you in your workspace. That’s so far as I wish to share. Nicely, you’ll see extra quickly. And Notion AI can do all the things you are able to do, all the things a human can do.

I just like the sound of that. Let me ask you about my product request, and you understand this request, as a result of I’ve had it for some time now. Principally, if you first began including AI options into Notion just a few years in the past, I put on this request, as a result of each hyperlink that has ever been in my publication, Platformer, is saved in a Notion database. In lots of circumstances, that features the total article textual content, and what I would like is to have the ability to have a dialog with that specific database. It might be so helpful for analysis and brainstorming columns.

On the identical time, it’s lots of of hundreds, possibly hundreds of thousands, of phrases. It’s not the form of factor that you could possibly simply throw right into a context window and simply let me have that dialog. So, my query, Ivan, is the place are we on this dream of mine?

To have the ability to have a dialog with all of your hundreds of articles in Notion?

It’s most likely already there, as a result of the strategies have been invented. You’re appropriate that you simply don’t have to suit all the things right into a context window. You possibly can index all the things, embed all the things, and piece info out as you want it. There’s one other method that’s been common prior to now 12 months or so, referred to as device use. It basically teaches the language mannequin, your agent, to know find out how to use search.

So, in case you have a query that’s not within the context window initially, the agent can go there, similar to a human can, to seek out extra details about it. It’s going to take just a little bit extra time round-trip, however finally, it provides you with what you need. So, new strategies will make the use circumstances you’re describing higher.

I just like the sound of that. And also you do have an Ask Notion feature already that I think about can entry some ingredient of what I’m speaking about, and lots of these things is simply form of on the internet, so there are different methods of accessing it. However I simply at all times suppose, “Man, if I may have a lightning quick means of simply chatting with this database the best way I’d chat with a coworker, that’d be tremendous cool.”

Oh, it ought to already be in your Notion workspace. Completely satisfied to stroll you thru the brand new enterprise search we simply launched. It’s good for that.

Okay, nice. All proper, we’ll troubleshoot that offline. OpenAI has come up a few occasions at the moment. You’re employed carefully with the corporate. Not too long ago, it introduced that you should utilize ChatGPT to create presentations and slide decks. The entire large labs are engaged on these full-stack digital assistants that they are saying may sometime be capable to do something a distant employee may be capable to do.

Do you suppose that they’ll get there within the subsequent, let’s say, 5 years? And what function do you see Notion taking part in in a world the place AI’s capabilities are quickly increasing that means?

Yeah, a method to consider it’s on the spectrum, whether or not it’s extra private, business-to-consumer flavored. Or it’s like business-to-business, team-first flavored.

I’d say most AI labs’ merchandise are at the moment extra private assistant-flavored. It will possibly assist you to do work or assist you to cheat in your homework. Often, B2C tends to be winner-takes-all, or there are few winners, and I believe it is smart for labs like OpenAI to go actually arduous in that course. Notion squarely is a B2B firm. Our product, our enterprise mannequin, is for different companies, and inside B2B, you’re required to make completely different tradeoffs.

There are such a lot of completely different subcategories, and it must be team-first to begin. That’s why our AI teammates, our AI agent and AI system, essentially stay in a workforce area that you simply or the remainder of your organization’s workers stay in. That’s the angle we’re taking. For my part, there will likely be many alternative winners in B2B AI, as a result of B2B normally shouldn’t be winner-takes-all, and you might want to make very completely different tradeoffs.

That’s attention-grabbing. I’m nonetheless undecided I completely perceive. Say a bit extra about what this business-to-business AI world seems like, and why it’s that it’s going to have many winners, whereas business-to-consumer possibly doesn’t?

Nicely, you may give it some thought within the skilled setting. So if you concentrate on all data work, it’s attorneys, accountants, programmers, and buyer assist, they usually’re all completely different. They require you to make just a little little bit of a distinct trade-off; that’s a distinct kind of AI agent. You possibly can already see this within the first-generation AI agent. They must be specialised and must plug into completely different contexts.

On the buyer aspect, you simply wish to chat along with your AI chatbot. It’s very common. That’s why on the B2C aspect, within the earlier era, there have been iPhone and Android. There are two issues, largely, and within the B2B SaaS world, there are literally thousands of completely different firms and lots of of various classes. So, whether or not it’s a software program or AI product, it’s important to make very completely different trade-offs. You can’t be an airplane and a submarine on the identical time, proper? That’s why within the skilled setting, you see a lawyer agent and a monetary agent, they usually behave very in another way. They should behave very in another way, in comparison with your private assistant that you simply get up to day-after-day and may chat with.

Proper now, you promote AI instruments as an add-on in your corporation and enterprise plans. I’m curious if this hurts your margin in any respect? We hear lots about how costly and compute-intensive, resource-intensive AI techniques may be to function. Is it a problem to combine these resource-hungry instruments into your current subscription?

We really just lately merged AI into our primary plan, as a result of greater than half of our gross sales at the moment are from clients who wish to purchase our AI product. So, it is smart to simply simplify the pricing buckets, to simply embrace AI into all the things. It does make the margin inferior to pure SaaS, however no. It’s so highly effective, and other people recognize it. And nonetheless, the corporate is money movement optimistic, so our CFO loves that, regardless of it being a distinct margin profile.

We’ve already seen some firms move toward usage-based pricing for AI, which, as a client, I hate. I don’t wish to make micropayments to ask ChatGPT a query, but it surely does look like that’s possibly a greater enterprise mannequin. What do you concentrate on the tradeoffs there?

I don’t suppose individuals have figured it out, particularly within the enterprise setting. The primary era is type of like buyer assist. With buyer assist, you may attempt to map what they name consequence resolution-based pricing. That is smart. Then there’s form of the second era, which is out proper now, and that’s coding. With coding, there’s a seat base, however should you use lots, it’s important to go to usage-based pricing. That form of is smart, as a result of via change, it’s a piece of labor. You get your file, you get your software program on the finish of the day. So individuals recognize that, and it saves programmers a lot extra time than really writing the piece of software program themselves.

Data work is nebulous. With data work, you may’t put a worth on it. It’s this chunk of a doc, however how a lot is it value? You possibly can’t actually quantify that. And the way good is a chunk of data work? How good is your product spec? You possibly can’t put a greenback signal on it. So, it’s a lot tougher for a general-purpose data work product like Notion. That’s the factor, the entire trade must determine it out.

That’s actually attention-grabbing. What do you would like that AI would make attainable in Notion that isn’t fairly attainable but?

You possibly can at all times get cheaper, quicker, and smarter, however you understand the practice is coming in that course, so it does require you to construct an organization another way. I believe that is what the software program trade is realizing proper now.

I by no means labored in the course of the dot com period. That was just a little bit earlier than me. Folks say that in that period, the online commonplace modified on a regular basis, each couple of months, or each three months it’s completely different. And there was Intel and the Moore’s Legislation period, the place you could possibly simply count on that 18 months later, the subsequent CPU would drive no matter software program you needed.

AI appears like that, however on steroids. Like each three months, the subsequent mannequin can do what you couldn’t do earlier than. So it does require you to actually change the way you construct software program and construct merchandise, and the way you construct an organization. A few issues: One is as a result of it’s continually altering, and the mannequin itself doesn’t like too many restrictions; you might want to construct a harness simply round the fitting locations. It’s nearly like should you construct an excessive amount of across the practice observe, the subsequent practice comes, and also you simply made what you simply constructed out of date, proper? You need to construct parallel to the practice observe. That’s primary.

Quantity two is that the language mannequin shouldn’t be deterministic. It’s completely different from basic software program engineering. The metaphor I like to make use of is that basic software program engineering is like constructing practice tracks or constructing bridges. It’s Newtonian physics. Every little thing’s predictable, and should you can think about it, you may construct it. Generally it takes three months, typically six months, however finally you may construct it, proper?

With this language mannequin factor, it’s squishy and it’s natural. The analogy I really like to make use of is like brewing beer, proper? You can not inform the yeast, “Hey, my beer is gonna style like this. Please ferment your self. Turn out to be like that.” You must channel what’s within the mannequin. One of the best you are able to do is create an setting, therapeutic massage the information, therapeutic massage the context, after which hope for the most effective.

So, this requires a way more iterative strategy. You can not come out of your imaginative and prescient or buyer wants first. You must come from what the expertise offers you — what the yeast, what the beer, offers you. So, actually enable your workforce to be extra empirical, extra experimental, much less of this type of waterfall, basic means of specing to code. It ought to be extra like incremental, iterative. All these add collectively and drive you to design, engineer, and develop merchandise in another way.

Does it change the best way that you simply rent? Does it change the best way that you simply construction groups? How does that strangeness that you simply describe translate into a distinct firm?

Folks must be extra okay with ambiguity. Folks want to like ambiguity. Folks must be extra experimental. The boundary between roles goes to be even larger. Like at Notion, we’d rent a designer who can code, as a result of should you’re an engineer and designer in a single, you may suppose much more ambiguously, extra fluidly, proper?

AI time pushed that even additional, as a result of the design and product sit aspect by aspect with engineers. Oftentimes, what you need can’t be constructed, so it’s important to actually attempt a bunch of various issues. That’s why you see lots of product demos get to love 60 to 70 %, however by no means turn out to be an actual product. That’s as a result of it’s good for making demos, however to get to manufacturing B2B software program, you might want to be actually good. It is advisable be dependable. Oftentimes, you by no means get there.

I take into consideration this lots within the context of those voice-based assistants. What I principally use them for is setting a timer or asking what the climate is, these very deterministic issues. And the businesses which are constructing [voice-based assistants] try to combine these new AI-based backends. But it surely’s extremely arduous, as a result of if the person continues to be utilizing the product, they’re nonetheless going to wish to set the timer, and if it goes from doing it accurately 100% of the time to love 93 % of the time, that’s a a lot worse product.

However I believe as people, all of us be taught what the sort of expertise is greatest at. It’s if you’re having a dialog, like when utilizing the voice mode, that you really want it to be ambiguous. You need it to go to completely different locations. That’s a characteristic, not a bug. I believe we — as an entire trade making software program with AI, and we as an viewers who use it — haven’t found out the stance but. It’s going to take a while to determine this out, like the most effective materials to make use of.

Nicely, I wish to finish simply by asking what you suppose Notion seems like just a little bit into the longer term. I can’t ask you about 5 years from now, as a result of I don’t suppose anyone has 5 years’ value of visibility into something.

But when I may possibly ask for like two years from now, what do you hope Notion is doing that it’s possibly not doing at the moment?

I believe, to return to what we simply talked about, that the character of software program is altering. It’s altering and evolving from only a set of instruments to this natural matter, to a device that may do some be just right for you, proper? The center of this firm is in SaaS software program. The basic software program period permits individuals to construct instruments, to permit individuals to make use of LEGO to create no matter instruments they need.

As a result of the character of that software program is altering, what we care about means that you can create AI teammates that will help you take a number of the most repetitive data work you don’t love to do. If we are able to notice that, there are lots of implications. The subsequent era of builders goes to run an organization very in another way — and I care about fixing that drawback.

All proper, nicely, Ivan, thanks a lot for becoming a member of me at the moment.

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